* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Grupo: Qualidade, Preços e Forma de Contratação de um Projeto Estrutural Inicio: 26/Marco/1996 Patrocinio: SISTRUT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: SISTRUT Software e Tecnologia Nome: Marcelo P. Picarelli Provedor: porta217.originet.com.br eMail: mailing@sistrut.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Comentario Mensagem Na edicao de numero 3 do jornal da ABECE Associacao Brasileira de Engenharia e Consultoria Estrutural, foi publicado o texto basico completo referente a este grupo de debates. As opinioes e sugestoes que forem enviadas diretamente para a associacao serao incluidas pela SISTRUT neste grupo. Da mesma forma, as opinioes e sugestoes enviadas diretamente ao grupo, serao repassadas para a diretoria da associacao. Sao Paulo, 10 de Maio de 1996 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: SISTRUT Software e Tecnologia Nome: Marcelo P. Picarelli Provedor: porta108.originet.com.br eMail: mailing@sistrut.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Comentario Mensagem Na edicao de numero 4 do jornal da ABECE Associacao Brasileira de Engenharia e Consultoria Estrutural, foi publicado na pagina 8 a seguinte nota: Agradeco a publicacao no ABECE Informa 3 da minha carta sobre o tema "selo de qualidade: Uma sugestao para a ABECE". A edicao do texto original manteve a ideia basica apresentada, permitindo, de maneira direta e propria, que fosse apresentado dentro das limitacoes de espaco do jornal. Por minha falha, esquecemos de avisar, como ja havia sido pedido pela Secretaria Executiva da ABECE, que o texto original e completo encontra-se a disposicao dos interessados na InterNET, no endereco da SISTRUT (http://www.sistrut.com.br). Aproveitamos a oportunidade para informar que foi aberto um grupo de debates neste endereco InterNET onde estamos recebendo, armazenando e disponibilizando, para todos os engenheiros, as varias sugestoes e opinioes a respeito do assunto. Sao Paulo, 1 de Junho de 1996 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: SISTRUT Software e Tecnologia S/C Ltda Nome: Marcelo P. PIcarelli Provedor: dl2-tnt1-099.sao.zaz.com.br Date:Wed Sep 29 16:45:57 1999 eMail: picarelli@sistrut.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem Por solicitação da secretaria executiva da ABECE - Associação Brasileira de Engenharia e Consultoria Estrutural, estamos veiculando para todo nosso mailing 'Chamada para Reunião Plenária' aonde estão sendo convidados além dos sócios da Associação, todos os profissionais que atuam na área de Engenharia de Projetos - Cálculo Estrutural. --------- início do texto recebido ------------- REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DOS SÓCIOS DIA 23 DE SETEMBRO DE 1999, ÀS 17:30 HORAS AOS ASSOCIADOS: Temos a satisfação de convidar V.Sas. para Reunião Plenária dos Sócios da ABECE, a ser realizada no próximo dia 23 de setembro (Quinta-feira), a partir das 17:30 horas, no Instituto de Engenharia de São Paulo, à Av. Dante Pazzanese, 120 – Vila Mariana, para debate sobre “ A QUESTÃO COMERCIAL NO SETOR DE PROJETOS, DENTRO DA ATUAL CONJUNTURA ECONÔMICA” ----------- fim do texto recebido ------------ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: ABECE Nome: Silvia Ziccardi Provedor: dl2-tnt2-217.sao.zaz.com.br Date:Wed Sep 29 17:17:03 1999 eMail: abece@abece.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem ATA DA REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DE 23/SETEMBRO/1999: A QUESTÃO COMERCIAL NO SETOR DE PROJETOS DIA E HORÁRIO DA REUNIÃO: 23/09/99 - 17:30 horas LOCAL: INSTITUTO DE ENGENHARIA SÃO PAULO SÚMULA DOS ASSUNTOS DEBATIDOS E DAS DECISÕES TOMADAS a.. ÍNTEGRA DA ABERTURA - Eng. José L. Cavalheiro A reunião plenária de hoje tem como assunto "A Questão Comercial no Setor de Projetos", foi decidida após diversas conversas formais com a diretoria executiva e informais com colegas associados que já a solicitavam faz algum tempo. Gostaria de deixar claro que não se trata de estarmos aqui para nos queixarmos uns dos outros ou mesmo para comentarmos casos pessoais de insatisfação com colegas, mas sim para trocarmos idéias praticas de como agir para melhorar a nossa situação junto aos nossos contratantes. Achamos que na atual situação que se encontra o nosso mercado não devíamos nos furtar a discutir o assunto com os colegas associados, pois como sabemos a ABECE originou-se após reuniões em meados de 1995 que culminaram com a fundação desta associaçã em outubro de 1995. A ABECE, como sabemos, não exerce nenhum papel regulamentador e nem fiscalizador dos valores praticados no mercado, que tem como referência as duas tabelas do Instituto de Engenharia, a amarela de 1980 e a azul de 1993, ambas constante e amplamente desprestigiadas e desrespeitadas. O mercado hoje tem nos causado grandes preocupações quanto às exigências técnicas e legais que nos estão sendo impostas; as questões técnicas envolvem problemas como constante atualização profissional, adaptação a novos métodos de trabalho constantemente modificados devido à informatização, reciclagem para utilização de novas normas e procedimentos, implantação de programas de qualidade, entre outros; as questões legais, estas sim muito mais complexas do que podemos imaginar, nos imputando penalidades incríveis em caso de erros em nossos procedimentos. Todos sabemos que para atendermos todas as exigências acima, somadas as exigências trabalhistas, que teimamos em tapar o sol com a peneira, os custos são bastante elevados. A questão mais importante é que os preços praticados no mercado hoje, na grande maioria dos casos, não cobrem as despesas que enfrentamos em nossos escritórios, fazendo com que tenhamos que pegar mais projetos à frente para cobrirmos os que ficaram para trás, tornando-nos como bicicletas, que ao pararmos de pedalar caímos. Acreditamos que os escritórios de projeto, na maioria dos casos, terão de passar por transformações estruturais para poderem dar prosseguimento as suas atividades e atender às exigências acima mencionadas, bem como cada vez mais às solicitações muitas vezes descabidas, de muitos de nossos contratantes, que sequer tem condições de avaliar o grau de dificuldade do nosso trabalho, nos impondo projetos arquitetônicos de baixa qualidade, prazos inexequíveis e mesmo solicitações que fogem ao escopo de nosso trabalho. Temos ainda que nos preocupar também com a parte de instalações e equipamentos de nossos escritórios onde hardware, software e suprimentos de informática tem um custo alto, pois alem de caros devem ser constantemente atualizados. Temos agora também que absorver gastos com plotagens que fazemos para nossa verificação de desenhos e até mesmo para nossos contratantes, pois esta história de mandar arquivos de desenho via modem ou Internet, nos tornam indiretamente copiadoras informais sem custo para os contratantes. Devemos mencionar ainda outro tipo de problema, que são os nossos prestadores de serviço como, consultores de informática, contadores, advogados entre outros, todos da mais alta qualificação para atender a situação atual. Parece nos que os escritórios de projeto, na maioria dos casos, estão financeiramente à margem do desenvolvimento econômico do nosso setor, onde temos de trabalhar de forma meio legal e meio informal correndo todos os riscos por esta forma de atuação, para podermos sobreviver às condições acima expostas. Para finalizar, um paradoxo, quanto mais investirmos em nossos escritórios tornando-os mais ágeis, atendendo melhor, fornecendo maiores informações, menos nos darão o valor devido, pois faremos tudo muito rápido e fácil aos olhos de nossos contratantes; assim sendo no limite, quando nos tornarmos perfeitos, nada valeremos e nada devemos receber. Bons tempos aquele onde se levava uma hora para se calcular uma viga de dez vãos pelo método de CROSS, meia hora para fazer o diagrama e quinze minutos para colocar os ferros e mais quinze minutos para desenha-la, pois valíamos mais sem tanta parafernália. b.. Após a abertura, a palavra foi passada aos participantes. Foi unanime a necessidade de união da classe, para fazer frente à pressão cada vez maiores dos contratantes dos serviços, tanto na questão da remunera=E7=E3o dos projetos, quanto =E0 falta de definição de escopo do projeto quando da sua contratação. Sobre a tabela de Honorários do Instituto de Engenharia as opiniões foram divergentes. Contra ela pesa o fato de fazer parte e ser utilizada no orçamento, mas com desconto de até 50% no final, tirando a credibilidade de sua aplicação, além de fornecer parâmetros aos contratantes que acabam sendo usados como forma de pressão na negociação das propostas. Os defensores da utilização e divulgação da tabela, acham necessária que o contratante saiba qual deveria ser o valor de remuneração do projeto, mesmo que sobre este valor seja concedido um desconto. Várias sugestões foram feitas sobre ações da ABECE que auxiliariam a melhorar este caos comercial. A saber: a.. Divulgação da Abece junto aos contratantes, através de um marketing profissional, buscando objetivamente a conscientização do valor e da responsabilidade implícita no projeto estrutural: b.. Elaboração e divulgação de escopo para contratação de projetos; c.. Mobilização da categoria para aplicação das resoluções; d.. Montagem de banco de dados, com divulgação mensal do valor médio ( m2 X área de Prefeitura ) praticado no mercado por categoria de obra. Este banco de dados seria alimentados por seus associados, que sempre que contratados para um projeto informariam à Abece o tipo de obra, data da contratação, área de prefeitura e valor do contrato; e.. Elaboração do "Código de Ética Profissional", sugerindo condutas a serem adotadas pelos profissionais, desenvolvimento de parcerias entre escritórios e bases para negociação de contratos. Criação da "Comissão de Ética", com objetivo de fazer cumprir o Código de Ética; Foi colocada também a dificuldade de se estabelecer um preço mínimo para os projetos, visto que a "Lei da oferta e da procura" nunca foi tão utilizada para tirar partido das dificuldades em que se encontram muitas empresas de projeto. Sendo assim, o preço mínimo poderia beneficiar os grandes escritórios, não deixando espaço para os pequenos. A qualidade dos trabalhos deveria ser a principal forma de seleção dos contratantes. Encerrada a Plenária e marcada continuidade dos trabalhos, dia 30 de setembro, às 17:30 horas, no I.E. Solicitado a presença de todos e divulgação deste novo encontro e mobilização de outros profissionais do setor. PRESENÇAS: Marcelo Rozenberg, José L. Cavalheiro, Valdir S. Cruz, Júlio Timerman, Sérgio Vieira da Silva, Gilberto Bertoni, Marcos Monteiro, Nelson Covas, Ibsen Puleo, Marcelo Picarelli, Alberto Werebe, Augusto Pedreira de Freitas, Sérgio Linardi, Roberto Dias Leme, Alberto Naccache, Luís Felipe Santoro, Natan Levental, Fares Assali, Eduardo Miyamoto, Luís Aurélio, Gabriel Feitosa, Nelson Sato, Eduardo Penteado, Marcelo Rojas Martini, Denivaldo Martini, Fábio Cardoso, Jefferson de Souza e Silvia Ziccardi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: SISTRUT Software e Tecnologia S/C Ltda Nome: Marcelo P. PIcarelli Provedor: dl1-tnt2-056.sao.zaz.com.br Date:Wed Oct 6 21:13:57 1999 eMail: picarelli@sistrut.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem Por solicitação da secretaria executiva da ABECE - Associação Brasileira de Engenharia e Consultoria Estrutural, estamos veiculando para todo nosso mailing 'Chamada para Reunião Plenária' aonde estão sendo convidados além dos sócios da Associação, todos os profissionais que atuam na área de Engenharia de Projetos - Cálculo Estrutural. --------- início do texto recebido ------------- SEGUNDA REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DOS SÓCIOS DIA 30 DE SETEMBRO DE 1999, ÀS 17:30 HORAS AOS ASSOCIADOS: Temos a satisfação de convidar V.Sas. para Reunião Plenária dos Sócios da ABECE, a ser realizada no próximo dia 30 de setembro (Quinta-feira), a partir das 17:30 horas, no Instituto de Engenharia de São Paulo, à Av. Dante Pazzanese, 120 – Vila Mariana, para debate sobre “ A QUESTÃO COMERCIAL NO SETOR DE PROJETOS, DENTRO DA ATUAL CONJUNTURA ECONÔMICA” ----------- fim do texto recebido ------------ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: SISTRUT Software e Tecnologia S/C Ltda Nome: Marcelo P. PIcarelli Provedor: dl1-tnt2-056.sao.zaz.com.br Date:Wed Oct 6 21:18:15 1999 eMail: picarelli@sistrut.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem Por solicitação da secretaria executiva da ABECE - Associação Brasileira de Engenharia e Consultoria Estrutural, estamos veiculando para todo nosso mailing 'Chamada para Reunião Plenária' aonde estão sendo convidados além dos sócios da Associação, todos os profissionais que atuam na área de Engenharia de Projetos - Cálculo Estrutural. --------- início do texto recebido ------------- TERCEIRA REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DOS SÓCIOS DIA 07 DE OUTUBRO DE 1999, ÀS 17:30 HORAS AOS ASSOCIADOS: Temos a satisfação de convidar V.Sas. para Reunião Plenária dos Sócios da ABECE, a ser realizada no próximo dia 7 de outubro (Quinta-feira), a partir das 17:30 horas, no Instituto de Engenharia de São Paulo, à Av. Dante Pazzanese, 120 – Vila Mariana, para debate sobre “ A QUESTÃO COMERCIAL NO SETOR DE PROJETOS, DENTRO DA ATUAL CONJUNTURA ECONÔMICA” Nesta reunião plenária serão iniciados os trabalhos dos grupos: a] Prática Profissional e Questão Legal b] Definição de Escopos ----------- fim do texto recebido ------------ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: ABECE Nome: Silvia Ziccardi Provedor: 200.212.50.47 Date:Tue Oct 19 17:15:37 1999 eMail: abece@abece.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem ATA DA REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DE 07/OUT/1999: A QUESTÃO COMERCIAL NO SETOR DE PROJETOS DIA E HORÁRIO DA REUNIÃO: 07/10/99- 17:30 horas LOCAL DA REUNIÃO:INSTITUTO DE ENGENHARIA DE SÃO PAULO SÚMULA DOS ASSUNTOS DEBATIDOS E DAS DECISÕES TOMADAS Foram definidos quatro grupos de trabalho que se reunirão todas as quintas-feiras das 18:00 às 20:00 hs. no Instituto de Engenharia. Estes grupos estão abertos à participação dos interessados, que deverão inscrever- se na ABECE. GRUPO 1 – TABELA DE CUSTO  Objetivo: Desenvolvimento de software, que será disponibilizado aos associados, para orçamento de projeto, considerando-se o custo do mesmo para cada empresa: a) Informando-se os dados da obra (áreas, nº de pavimentos, nº de subsolos, etc), o programa calculará a equipe necessária (homens/hora); b) Informando-se os salários da equipe, custos fixos e encargo, o programa calculará o custo do projeto para a empresa. GRUPO 2 – ESCOPO  Objetivo: Definição de escopos para contratação e fornecimento do projeto estrutural. Divulgação desses escopos ao mercado, através dos sindicatos (SINDUSCON/SECOVI). GRUPO 3 – BANCO DE DADOS  Objetivo: Desenvolvimento de um banco de dados, alimentado pelos associados para montar histórico com valor dos honorários praticados pelo mercado, com resultado mensal em R$ x m2 de área de Prefeitura. Deverá ser garantido o sigilo das informações. GRUPO 4 – PRÁTICA PROFISSIONAL – ÉTICA/AUDITORIA/VERIFICAÇÃO DE PROJETOS.  Objetivo: Sugerir e divulgar procedimentos importantes no dia a dia das empresas de projeto. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Enviado por Empresa: ABECE Nome: Silvia Ziccardi Provedor: 200.212.50.47 Date:Tue Oct 19 17:26:11 1999 eMail: abece@abece.com.br Grupo: Qualidade, Precos e Forma de Contratacao de um Projeto Estrutural Tipo: Outras Mensagem REUNIÃO PLENÁRIA DOS SÓCIOS DIA 14 DE OUTUBRO DE 1999, ÀS 18:00 HORAS AOS ASSOCIADOS:Temos a satisfação de convidar V.Sas. para Reunião Plenária dos Sócios da ABECE, a ser realizada no próximo dia 14 de outubro (Quinta-feira), a partir das 18:00horas, no Instituto de Engenharia de São Paulo, à Av. 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